Just to remind people…

… particularly my many cis feminist friends. that there are some really unpleasant transphobes out there and WE ARE NOT MAKING IT UP, here’s a couple of supposedly feminist sites. They are more likely to trigger a mixture of rage and pity than actual pain, but I went there, following those gallant explorers docbrite and greygirlbeast to whom thanks so other trans people don’t have to: one which is just a bunch of haters and their friends and this one which at least has some dissenting voices.

Given this, do people now understand why a lot of us feel uneasy on eg Reclaim the Night marches, where the woman standing next to us might be what someone has usefully called Schrodinger’s Transphobe, the person you only know hates you when they suddenly start screaming in your face?

The people who write these blogs doubtless think that Julie Bindel is a trans-loving liberal and Janice Raymond too soft; the women on Aroo specifically refuse to mourn murdered trans women on the grounds that 1, “proper” women are killed every day and 2. we aren’t women so why should they care? They also don’t like trans men very much.

Never mind, they are the sort of people so full of bile that they fall out with each other, and then with themselves.

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About rozkaveney

Middleaged, trans, novelist, poet, activist
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48 Responses to Just to remind people…

  1. snakey says:

    Oh look, dirt’s on AROOO. Why am I not surprised…?

    Anyone who thinks that mourning murdered trans women = “sucking dick”…yeah. o_O

  2. paulathomas says:

    The first site is moderated presumably to keep nasty trans people like me off it!!

    The article is as ignorant as Derrida’s remark about Einstein’s Theory of Relativity and that is high on the ignorance scale

  3. Why is it apparently so difficult for people belonging to any given non-default group to figure out there’s maybe a point to standing together against a default which rejects at least parts of each and every one of us? This is the question I keep asking myself, especially whenever crazymaking non-default on non-default BS like this shows up.
    But then again, fifty different types of privilege on my part, yadda yadda. All I can tell you is that cis or not, I personally believe that murder is murder, and that it’s undeniable that trans people are targeted for daring to be who they are (unless, of course, you’re so filled with hate that since you can’t shit on your genuine enemies, you’ll settle for shitting on your potential allies.)

    • ex_voz_lati says:

      (unless, of course, you’re so filled with hate that since you can’t shit on your genuine enemies, you’ll settle for shitting on your potential allies.)

      Clarify, please. As a privileged person “fifty” times over, would you care to share precisely what determines who is an appropriate target, and who gets to judge that, and why?

      • rozkaveney says:

        Obviously I can’t speak for but it seems to me that the relevant question is always who has the power, who is abusing that power, and whom they are abusing it against. All of us who live in the first world and are part of the netorati have in at least one resepect a degree of privilege unimaginable to earlier generations, and to most of the world’s population, which is the ability to make our opinions public, with comparatively few possible negative consequences, and with some chance that they will be passed around way beyond our immediate circle of acquaintance. Indeed, the six degrees of separation principle means that the ripples may just keep on going, if we are expressive enough.

        So, who is an appropriate target? People who are being mean, ill-tempered and spiteful. Who gets to decide? The rest of us.

        All of this is open to question, all of this is open to abuse – and yet we try to create virtue and justice in this imperfect world and sometimes we succeed.

      • ex_voz_lati says:

        seems to me that the relevant question is always who has the power, who is abusing that power

        This is pure gold, and I thank you very much for saying it.

        That is all, and peace.

      • rozkaveney says:

        Thanks.

        Peace and also love. (I am an old hippy.)

    • sciamanna says:

      The “logic” appears to be, see, trans women are REALLY men, so they’re REALLY the oppressor, and can’t go around saying they’re oppressed by cis women.

      …as for trans men, well they’re cheats, being women who betray their sisters and get male privilege for themselves by pretending to be men. So they become oppressors AND traitors.

      See? It makes perfect sense!

      …I need to go and wash my brain now…

  4. You don’t have to convince *this* feminist cis woman, anyway. How do I know? Because of the cis women I know, perfectly reasonable in most things, who turn into absolute bonkers frothing lunatics whenever it’s suggested that trans women might just possibly have some expectation of normal basic human rights. They remind me of the taxi drivers in East London who start conversations with ‘I’m not racist but…’

  5. calimac says:

    “You do not exist,” said O’Brien.

  6. deborahw37 says:

    Thank you for the links.

    The first was just depressing but at least there was some interesting debate on the second.

    Not a debate I was interested in joining because I’m nowhere near rad enough to be a “real” feminist according to some of the opinions voiced there. certainly my brand of feminism doesn’t demonise all those in possession of a penis and it embraces all women.

    In the debate around the second post the constant reiteration of who was
    ” born” female and who wasn’t really rankled with me, and that’s before the debates about pre and post op kicked in.

    I have privileges which are mine because I was born cis gendered and white and middle class and British and with access to education and health care and so many other things that I have a hard job working up any head of steam about my oppressed status. Instead I recognise that I have a responsibility to stand with and for women who do not share those privileges .

    Transgendered people have struggles and challenges which I have not shared and thus can never fully understand so forgive me if my next statement seems over simplistic .

    In my brand of feminism if you identify as being female then you’re female and I’ll march alongside you to reclaim the night and I’ll mourn with you when one of your/our own is murdered and I’ll get VERY tetchy with anyone asking you to use an accessible loo rather than a women’s loo.

    In other words we’re talking sisterhood and striving for equality and justice.

    To do anything else seems incomprehensible to me.

  7. Anonymous says:

    re:

    Sorry to break it to you, but the opinion expressed by femoade is a perspective literally everyone born with two X chromosomes can identify with.
    Thats not meant as a criticism, its simply a matter of fact.

    Is it my imagination, or is the author attacking those feminists whose opinions have been formed through the experience of being raised female?
    Maybe one should ask Margaret where her opinion of “raging misogynist” (response dated 23/11/09) comes from?

    Afterall, its one thing to criticise the next person’s opinion, but another thing to change it for them.

    • rozkaveney says:

      I’m having a certain amount of trouble deciphering what you are trying to say.

      And yes, I think it is largely your imagination. And you don’t need to break anything to me – I have kind of heard it before.

      • rozkaveney says:

        Oh, and the reason I don’t track IPs from anonymous comments is that I have a couple of regular commenters who comment from the office and that’s problematic for them. So, could you please do what they do, out of politeness, and sign your comments, with some sort of handle, so that I can at least notionally keep track of which anonymous comment is which.

        Thanks a whole bunch. You know it makes sense.

      • jennyo says:

        Oh, darlin, you know it’s a drive-by troll who is claiming superiority because she can speak for all of us cis-womens now. It’s a lovely way to shut down dissent and by lovely I mean, “a way to prevent herself from ever feeling like the complete asshole she is.”

      • snakey says:

        And us trans men, you note. 😉

      • jennyo says:

        I do indeed, though I forgotted. My bad: I was goin’ for pithy and not, “fuck that bigot-y ass person who don’t know her ass from her elbow” which was my initial response to Obvious Troll of Obviousness.

    • sciamanna says:

      I haven’t actually had my genome checked, but to all appearances I was born with two X chromosomes. And I say you need to get your “facts” checked. Which is proof, pending genetic examination.

    • Margaret’s “raging misogynist” opinion likely comes from the same place all of her other opinions about trans women come from: her own privilege. And by “privilege” I mean “raging trans misogyny.” Her anti-trans views are so ludicrous it’s barely worth acknowledging them.

      She and E. Kitty Glendower are welcome to their echo chamber. If their rhetoric appeals to the likes of dirtywhiteboy, Nick Chaleunphone, and Polly Styrene it’s not as if they’re in danger of actual insight.

      • Or serious influence.

      • But at the same time I want people to see Roz’ point: That people like this can and do show themselves in public, at events like Take Back the Night, that you never know when a real-life bigot with the same beliefs as Margaret, Kitty, Femonade, dirt, will harass or attack you just for being present and trans. While any individual person may feel “I’m not like that!” it’s not about them, it’s about the fact that you never know who will start this. If I march in TBTN, I may be lucky enough to stand next to you, or unlucky enough to end up next to dirt. It’s not about you, but the possibility of being near toxic hatred.

    • steepholm says:

      Sorry to break it to you, but the opinion expressed by femoade is a perspective literally everyone born with two X chromosomes can identify with.

      Some trans men I know will be surprised to hear that!

    • I am cis-gendered/biologically female/born with two X chromosomes/whatever the f**k you want to call it.

      You do not speak for me.

  8. I want feminism to change its slogan to “the radical notion that all humans are equal”, because maybe then feminism will stop acting as a refuge for so many racists and transphobes. Ugh. That first link was vile, vile, vile.

  9. Anonymous says:

    Helen shrugs

    Whilst I accept that some feminists (Bindel, Greer, Raymond etc) have sufficient influence to present us with genuine legislative threat, this is so parodic that the vitriol undermines their credibility. This is Beck/Palin self-defeat territory.

    Frankly, if their gender self-definition is so fragile that our very existence threatens it, then I think they have more to worry about than us.

    • Anonymous says:

      Re: Helen adds

      Just remember, a lot of feminists had real problems with the creation of Men’s societies at university. A lot of feminists still see males through the lens of second wave opposition. the same old battles have to be fought again and again. Tragedy, farce,… then what ?

      So it should be no surprise that there are still these clueless wonders around rallying around 70s essentialist transphobia. It’s all new to them, however jaded we are by it.

  10. the_maenad says:

    I hate to sound smug, but don’t these anti-trans “feminists” sound quaint?

    It’s too easy to forget that the people saying these ludicrous things are also the ones standing by and smiling in approval when we get attacked and, on occasion, killed. Thanks for reminding me.

    • blahflowers says:

      When I was looking at Miss Andrea’s blog early in the year for her awful attempts at attacking people on much the same grounds as the examples above it did seem that some of these women are trying to move to claim the ground of proud misandrists as even radical feminism is too touchy-feely and nice for them.

  11. annafdd says:

    I tried to read those links, I really did, but I only got as far as the titles. I just don’t have the stomach. This in itself is privilege, of course.

  12. kattahj says:

    That’s so bad on so many levels. And the second one claiming that all cis women feel that they’re in the wrong body… it was so incredibly wrong-headed and so saddening at the same time.

  13. This one’s less overtly vicious, but notice the nice cis feminist wishing that society would change so trans people will no longer exist. The specific fail I reference is in the comments.

    The blog owner wrote this charming essay several years ago.

  14. Anonymous says:

    I know you’re not making it up. It’s not just fringe sites; there’s a major American feminist site that I don’t read, who commit all sorts of -isms including that one.

    From comments on this F Word post (http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2009/11/reclaim_the_nig_14), RTN London and Million Women Rise will tell people informally that trans women are welcome, but they won’t commit themselves in public. Apparently they think they can have their cake and eat it too, but with their record of giving a platform to Bindel, that’s not good enough.

  15. violacoye says:

    Wow, the first one made me so mad I could not even look at the second. Not only are the authors twisting feminism and attacking trans people, they are deleting all comments that don’t agree with them and posting actual addresses for some of the dissenting commenters. WTF!?!?

  16. Also, just as a note of general order, E. Kitty Glendower used to be Chasing Moksha, who after being called out on something racist she said, accused women of color of “morphing into the oppressor.”

    She’s admitted that she creates sock puppets and appropriates identities almost at will, and accuses people who disagree with or criticize her of threatening violence upon her. Plus her incredibly defensive denial of her own white privilege:

    Funny how you misanthropes who are asserting I am someone else have never met me or talked to me on my blog or in real life. Anyone can claim anything. I was Roderick, the angry black man veteran living in Germany on a message board for eight years. I was also a Mexican-American recovering crack head mother on a message board for five years. No one was the wiser, which is why asking white people to answer a whiteness research is flawed research. Lazy. Anyone on the net can say they are white and female to misconstrue some naive undergraduate�s research.

    Apparently, you doing the accusations need someone to vent your anger on. But until someone produces a picture of me, a picture of whoever you are accusing me of being and proof that both people are the same, along with solid documentation proving that both are the same, you will be dismissed as nothing but fire starters. Speculation is just that, speculation. Therefore, feel free to carry on with your false accusations, I am dealing with this mess Rachel has created. Someone claiming to be Rachel with an apology gave me a virus, along with threats of rape and murder and usual run of the mill rubbish.

    Rachel I really must question your inability to read. I specifically stated that my identified identity is non-existent on the internet, not in real life. Did you miss that part? Or were your chops so hungry for attention that you purposely missed it? You need to make me white, that is your need. Because a person of colour can only approach in a way that you have coloured. You also need to ask yourself why you need to make certain people white. I suspect if you thought hard enough you will realise it is because you need to categories everyone. If you didn’t your life�s work would be a lie and too painful to bear. We cannot have that now can we professor? Right. Everyone must belong to a category!

    Btw, the threat of rape by noose (which of us will have the noose around our neck during the act) is so original. …..only takes a few words to make the alleged oppressed the oppressors. First world privilege surfacing? What lack of control of thou�s primitive instincts. Or should I assume these threats are coming from white women? How will you dismiss that? It is not right for the bigots to post about you Rachel Sullivan, but you can send people to threaten me with rape?

    I bid adieu to the lot of you, I have some real blogging to do, some real internet interaction.

    She has a history of stirring drama in the blogosphere, and a tendency to suck people into said drama.

    • Also, I forgot her explicit appropriation of WOC experiences by describing herself as culturally black because she married a black man.

      • Since I’m spammy today:

        This post (can’t get to BFP’s original atm):

        But I just read that CM’s [Chasing Moksha’s/Kitty Glendower’s] title “Morphing into the Oppressor” is referring to women of color. That is, women of color are turning into oppressors. We are colluding with white men and men of color to attack and violate white women. Specifically, we shouldn’t be “attacking” white women when there are “bigger fish to fry” (aka men).

        This sentiment is not a new sentiment amongst white women. It’s actually a sentiment that’s been bandied about by one white feminist or another since I started blogging–and I know from women of color theorists/activists that they have had to deal with this white woman insecurity from the moment white women decided to start their own movement back in the 60’s/70’s.

      • Late to the party, but didn’t Heart say much the same thing at some point?

      • I remember Heart claiming that marrying a black man permanently stained her white skin in some way, marking her as a race traitor forever and always, even after she divorced and married a white man. And that she understood racism because when white people saw her with her black husband that they looked at her as if she were black.

        And then she went on to talk about how abusive one of her black husbands was and talked about Nicole Simpson.

  17. Wow, that post at ARoomOfOurOwn is completely vomit-inducing.

    Thank you. This cis feminist appreciates the reminder.

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